The Is It Rape? controversy.
I don’t want to take anything away from what people experience when they see it, but I think that to call it “rape” is, like, kind of forgetting about what happened before, and who these characters are. That whole relationship all these years has been grabbing these very secret, intense moments of physical intimacy when they could. Cersei didn’t want to have sex there, but she was…I mean, they were both so tormented emotionally. He was in desperate need for her, she was in desperate need for something else, and that happened in the most inappropriate place you could imagine. This is a one-armed man, she’s wearing a lot of clothes, it’s very difficult to...I don’t think it would be possible if she didn’t also play along in some way. But it’s a very tricky thing to talk about, because I understand that people have an experience when they watch it and that’s totally fine. The only thing I know that we wanted is that it was another low point in their relationship. But I think later, when this whole season is over, we’ll revisit their relationship, and then hopefully we’ll add some more depth to that discussion.
What’s the aftermath of that scene for their relationship?
She’s trying to make him whole again—she had this hand made for him because she couldn’t bear looking at his stump. And for that moment in the sept when she kisses him, it’s just such a relief, for just a moment she’s back, and he feels that he has her back. But the golden hand comes up to her face and she just can’t hide her disgust. And that’s very hurtful. And he says, “Why did the Gods make me love such a hateful woman?” It’s very complex. What I love about the show is that nothing is black and white—we work in grays.
That’s why, sometimes, it’s easy to forget about the whole twincest thing and look at them as two people in love.
We’re not doing social commentary with this. It’s about these people, these very specific, made-up people in this made-up world. But anyway, the aftermath: she wants to control him. She wants him to do what she wants. And he’s always done that in the past, more or less. Now she just wants him to do something that he can’t do—he can’t kill his brother, and he can’t kill Sansa Stark because he’s made a promise. That, of course, is infuriating to Cersei. Then, of course, the Brienne thing. At the wedding he saw that she had a conversation with Cersei, and he knows her well enough. He knows that Brienne is not safe. He has to get her out of there. He gives her the best weapon, and the best armor that he can get, and then he has to send her off. And part of him would like to go along, but he has to stay, he has to fulfill his obligations. And, of course, now his brother is also in this fucked up situation that he has to try to deal with. It’s not a happy family. It’s not a happy place to be.
So, what is it about his relationship with Brienne that affects him so much, changes him?
The show is full of people that are never honest. It’s called Game of Thrones, there’s always an angle to whatever people do. Now, suddenly, he meets someone who doesn’t play any angle. She says what she thinks, and she follows up. She’s honest. She’s truthful. That’s, I think, at the core, is the way he sees himself, and the way he wants to be. She helped him reconnect. She has something that he lost, and he lost it after the incident when he became known as the Kingslayer.
Now he’s stuck watching his brother stand trial for a crime he hasn’t committed.
It’s horrible! It’s devastating. Jaime does all he can. He’s willing to sacrifice himself in a way, by kind of giving in to Tywin. But also that devastating moment when he goes to Tywin and he realizes this was Tywin’s plan all along. He was just one step ahead. And then Tyrion just can’t hold back, and just basically sentences himself to death, which is horrible. It’s just heartbreaking.
Right, the trial by combat—Tyrion hasnamed Jaime his champion before.
Jaime knows if he has to save Tyrion in going up against The Mountain, he’s not going to save Tyrion. He’s going to get killed. He knows that he’s not good enough, and he doubts Bronn is good enough. It’s very difficult for him to see who could beat The Mountain.
Does he feel responsible for Joffrey’s murder since it happened on his watch?
I don’t think so. I mean, yeah, he is responsible. It’s the second king that died on his watch, now. The third king, actually. Yeah, it’s not good. He hasn’t got a good track record. But Joffrey had it coming, let’s face it.
Yes. Yes. Wow. There was a lot of discussion after the scene in the crypt! It's funny, because when we did the scene, we thought there was going to be a lot of talk about it, but we always thought it was going to be about the fact that we were having sex in front of Joffrey. I never thought of it as a rape scene.
In the book, when we get that scene, it doesn't read as rape, at least from Jaime's point of view. But it's a different timeline of events and a different situation on the show.
Well, the thing about it is, it clearly starts with a lot of emotion, and it's very physical, and it's very aggressive, and I think with the history of their relationship, and the sex they had, and where they had sex ... Of course, with anything, people can take what they want, and what you see is what you see, and how you interpret it is how you interpret it. But we didn't intend it to be just a rape scene. That has nothing to do with that relationship. I mean, the only thing I want to say is, this guy has one hand. It's just not physically possible to ... I just don't think ... She's a very strong woman. It just couldn't happen. I think the point was more, she didn't want it to be there. She doesn't want to do it there. She's saying, "Not here. Not now."
"Not here, not now, maybe somewhere more romantic? Not next to the corpse of our dead son?"
[Laughs] Exactly. That doesn't mean she doesn't want to ... Never mind! I don't want to talk too much about this scene, though, because it'll be more interesting to talk about it at the end of this season. Definitely, no matter what, it's a very messed-up relationship that these two people have, that's for sure. And without giving anything away, we explore that relationship more.
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ok tbh i actually think he was less of an idiot in this interview than others, but the whole idea of "its not rape because she didn't fight back" is so gross.
